29 July 2017

Richard Dawkins: The God of the Old Testament

(29 July 17: I originally posted this nearly nine years ago, soon after Richard Dawkins's wonderful speech. More recently, the Freedom From Religion Foundation created a new website based upon this speech and Dan Barker's book - God: the Most unpleasant Character in all Fiction. So I thought I'd repost this and update the list with additions from FFRF's site and Dan's Book.)

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it

How jealous and proud is he? Well, his name is Jealous. And he named himself!

For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Exodus 34:14

Here are some more verses where God brags about his jealousy.

I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Exodus 20:5

For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. Deuteronomy 4:24

I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Deuteronomy 5:9

(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth. Deuteronomy 6:15

The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven. Deuteronomy 29:20

They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. Deuteronomy 32:16

They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Deuteronomy 32:21

He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Joshua 24:19

And Judah did evil in the sight of the LORD, and they provoked him to jealousy with their sins. 1 Kings 14:22

And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. Ezekiel 8:3

Then said he unto me, Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north. So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry. Ezekiel 8:5

I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy. Ezekiel 16:38

So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry. Ezekiel 16:42

And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire. Ezekiel 23:25

Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen. Ezekiel 36:5

For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel. Ezekiel 38:19

God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; Nahum 1:2

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy. Zechariah 1:14

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. Zechariah 8:2

All the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. Zephaniah 3:8

a petty,
A golden bell and a pomegranate ... shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the LORD, and when he cometh out, that he die not. Exodus 28:34-35

Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee. Leviticus 19:19

Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. Leviticus 19:27

Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God. Deuteronomy 17:1

Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together. Deuteronomy 22:11

Thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest thyself. Deuteronomy 22:12

He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. Deuteronomy 23:1

A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation. Deuteronomy 23:2

Thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee. For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp. Deuteronomy 23:13-14

Behold, I am against your pillows. Ezekiel 13:20

unjust,
If thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn. Exodus 4:23

The LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast. Exodus 13:15

I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Exodus 20:5

Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers. Isaiah 14:21

(See here for a more complete list of Old Testament injustices.)

unforgiving
He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Joshua 24:19

For the innocent blood that he shed: for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood; which the LORD would not pardon. 2 Kings 24:4

Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble. Jeremiah 11:14

When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence. Jeremiah 14:12

Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. Ezekiel 8:18

control-freak;
But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: ... The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods (hemorrhoids), and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart: ... Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: ... The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head. ... And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters ... The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter, And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them. Deuteronomy 28:15-68

For another 1647 examples see Every Jot and Tittle: All of the Commandments in the Bible

a vindictive,
I kill .. I wound ... I will render vengeance to mine enemies ... I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. Deuteronomy 32:39-42

He will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries. Deuteronomy 32:43

To me belongeth vengeance and recompence ... for the day of their calamity is at hand. Deuteronomy 32:35

And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them. Nunbers 11:1

Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, I will punish them: the young men shall die by the sword; their sons and their daughters shall die by famine: Jeremiah 11:22

For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood. Jeremiah 46:10

And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard. Micah 5:15

bloodthirsty
And the priest shall dip his finger in some of the blood, and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD. Leviticus 4:17

And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. Leviticus 26:29

I kill .. I wound ... I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. Deuteronomy 32:39-42

But God shall wound the head of his enemies ... That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same. Psalm 68:21-23

For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. Isaiah 34:2-3

For my sword shall be bathed in heaven. Isaiah 34:5

The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, ... their land shall be soaked with blood, ... For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance. Isaiah 34:7-8

And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine. Isaiah 49:26

I will ... trample them in my fury; and their blood ... will stain all my raiment. Isaiah 63:2-6

And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend. Jeremiah 19:9

For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood. Jeremiah 46:10

Cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood. Jeremiah 48:10

Thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. Ezekiel 39:17

Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth. Ezekiel 39:18

And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. Ezekiel 39:19

And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. Zephaniah 1:17 (See here for a more complete list of Old Testament cruelties.

ethnic cleanser;
Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:15

Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

a misogynistic,
Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, an do ye to them as is good in your eyes. Genesis 19:8

Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife. 1 Samuel 18:27

And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged. Leviticus 19:20

And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. Leviticus 21:9

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Nunbers 31:15-19

And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself. Deuteronomy 20:13-14

And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her .... Thou shalt go in unto her. Deuteronomy 21:11-13

If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated .... Deuteronomy 21:15

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... Deuteronomy 22:13

I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid. Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city. But if ... the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:14-21

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24

When two men strive together on with another, and the wife of the one ... putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her. Deuteronomy 25:11-12

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife. 1 Samuel 18:27

Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 2 Samuel 12:11

And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the LORD Ezekiel 26:6

homophobic,
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Leviticus 18:22

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13

racist,
One of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses ... And when Phinehas ... saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand; And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. Numbers 25:6-8

The LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. Deuteronomy 7:6

An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever. Deuteronomy 23:3

infanticidal,
At midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon. Exodus 12:29

Ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. Leviticus 26:16

I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children. Leviticus 26:22

And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. Leviticus 26:29

Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. ... And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick... on the seventh day, that the child died. 2 Samuel 12:14-18

Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers. Ezekiel 5:10

And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend. Jeremiah 19:9

genocidal,
Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:15

But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. Deuteronomy 20:16-17

So smote all the country ... he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40

Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

filicidal,
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and ... offer him there for a burnt offering. Genesis 22:2

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death. Leviticus 20:9

And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. Leviticus 21:9

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods ... hou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. Psalm 137:9

pestilential,
And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague. Nunbers 11:33

And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Nunbers 21:6

The hand of the LORD was against the city ... and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts. 1 Samuel 5:9

So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? ... So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel ... and there died of the people ... seventy thousand men. 2 Samuel 24:13

So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee: and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it. Ezekiel 5:17

megalomaniacal,
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly. 2 Samuel 22:8-11

Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 38:23

sadomasochistic,
Thou shalt even drink it and suck it out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 23:34
capriciously malevolent
Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark ... fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city. Ezekiel 9:4-7

Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. Ezekiel 8:18

And the cities that are inhabited shall be laid waste, and the land shall be desolate; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 12:20

bully.
And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the LORD: the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy. Jeremiah 15:3

And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 38:21-23


63 comments:

Hugo said...

That Is Awesome!
I've been waiting for someone to put that quote next to the actual scripture.
Thanks

Aquaria said...

It was learning that the reason we had to believe in god was because he was a jealous god that I got on my path to atheism. Before then I hadn't been too concerned about religion, but learning god had such a flaw made me think the whole god thing was a bunch of bs.

Thanks, Lutheran school 5th grade religious education!

Verification word: Evagica. The mis-spelled female hygiene product.

lockharts said...

wow dawkins lol gotta love him. Oh and can we please stop putting verses out of context....

Jealousy in God is not a flaw... If God was not jealous he would have left and forsaken us with our idols long ago. He definatly would not have sent his son.

Why is jealousy for us a sin? Because everything we have is from God and we don't deserve it. If we are jealous of something we are being materialistic and therefore not appreciative of what God gives us aka we are idol worshiping.

Jealousy in God must be seen as what God deserves... Therefore if it is not givin to Him he is naturally jealous of what he deserves not what he wants.

Overall I agree with dawkins, if He was a man, I really wouldn't like Him too much. Why would we listen to a guy that goes around saying He is better than us...

But He's not, therefore there is a lot more grace to all of this. If God was being "Just" we would have been smited and wiped from the Earth a long time ago. Yet God decided to perserver with His people (Israel) slowly restoring them.

Question: If God had not been so harsh on His people and had not told them to stay away from the other nations for corruptions sake, would there be the Church today or Christianity at all???

This is meant for debate, I would not try to convert people over the internet, thats not my point. So argue it with intellegence please...

Hugo said...

Okay lockhearts, I'll bite a little.
So a concept that means something to us means something else when applied to your god concept?
Then if it is black your brain will find a way to make it white when applied to your god.
I suggest you look up the special pleading argument.

Also what does it mean when you say: "would there be the Church today or Christianity at all"
just because it is believed by (many) people does not make it true (argument from popularity), have a look at hinduism if that is important for you.

And why did you just pick that attribute, there's still all these:
petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully

Maybe a bit harder even for your brain but I'd love to see you give it a try.


Did everyone see the new t-shirts on http://richarddawkins.net/ guess he read your mind Steve or was it a joint effort ;-)

Kamacharya said...

Question: If God had not been so harsh on His people and had not told them to stay away from the other nations for corruptions sake, would there be the Church today or Christianity at all???

My answer:
Probably not. Nor would there have been the advent of Islam either. Nor would the Dark Ages have happened, and we humans might be a thousand years ahead in technology than we are now.
I could be wearing rocket-boots and being served cocktails by sexy android waitresses right now if it wasn't for the theocracy that ruled over - and dumbed down - Europe after the fall of Rome!

Anon said...

Great (re)post. I'm just finishing listening to The God Delusion on audiobook, and I recognize this excerpt from the beginning. It's very interesting to see how well Dawkin's words match up with the Bible.

I would hate to be Aaron. I could see myself forgetting to put the bell on some day and being killed on the spot for it. I bet pastors are happy this one still isn't in effect.

Aquaria said:It was learning that the reason we had to believe in god was because he was a jealous god that I got on my path to atheism

For me, it was mostly the fact that God made/let people suffer, both in life and in the afterlife. But if I had known about all these jealousy verses earlier, it might have had a bigger impact.

lockharts said:Jealousy in God is not a flaw... If God was not jealous he would have left and forsaken us with our idols long ago. He definatly would not have sent his son.

You're saying that God sent his son to get crucified here on Earth because he was jealous. Couldn't God have thought of a better way than killing his son to convince us that we should worship him?

Jealousy in God must be seen as what God deserves...

I don't see how killing off Jesus gives God his due. I can understand the idea of God not wanting us to worship other gods, but Jesus dying on the cross didn't solve this since other religions still exist. If God really wants us to believe in him, couldn't Jesus come back down for a press conference and perform a few miracles for a global audience? I'm being completely serious. If God is there, why doesn't he just tell us? A lot more people would believe in him and be saved from hell.

If God was being "Just" we would have been smited and wiped from the Earth a long time ago.

If God was being just, would he still be punishing the human race for what Adam and Eve did thousands of year ago? He tried to smite everyone before to make things better (the flood), but it didn't work and he said he was sorry he did it.

If God had not been so harsh on His people and had not told them to stay away from the other nations for corruptions sake, would there be the Church today or Christianity at all???

This is an interesting way of thinking of it. I agree with Kamacharya, we'd probably be better off if it weren't for Christianity, as long as people weren't duped into some other religion, which I'm afraid probably would have happened though...Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, though.

james said...

Great post. And it's still going on! There are a few cartoons on god's actions at
this blog - hope they make you guys laugh! http://macleodcartoons.blogspot.com/2008/12/so-thats-where-it-came-from.html

http://macleodcartoons.blogspot.com/2008/12/mysterious-ways.html

http://macleodcartoons.blogspot.com/2008/12/vengeful-god.html

fenm said...

lockharts said:
"Why is jealousy for us a sin? Because everything we have is from God and we don't deserve it"

You mean like disease, and children with birth defects, and tsunamis that kill thousands of people? I agree that we don't deserve that.

Oh, wait, you probably meant just the good stuff God gives us, huh?

"Question: If God had not been so harsh on His people and had not told them to stay away from the other nations for corruptions sake, would there be the Church today or Christianity at all???"

You're operating under the assumption that lack of a Church and Christianity would be a bad thing...

kinzu-kiwi said...

Sometimes I wonder if God just acts tough to show His fans how "hard" He is.

What if He's a big sissy who's so scared of loosing his friends he has to do all this barbaric stuff or else he'll "loose his edge"?

Afterall, his books wouldn't have sold half as well if people knew what a goody-two-shoes he is.

Even the "apologetics" who go on about God's love don't think Jesus or Yahweh is all-forgiving; they believe Heaven comes at a price.

He definetely seems to be laying it on a bit thick in the bible, he's all "I'm badass and awesome and stuff", but for all we know he could be some wimp who decorates his house with pictures of Unicorns and loves the Care Bears. Hmm... this seems to remind me of something.

Can anyone guess what I am reminded of? :3

bencyjohn said...

i have my own views on god and i am trying to express it in my blog
www.bencyjohn.blogspot.com
pls feel free to come and comment

Luke said...

Awesome.

jacobwright said...

This is ignoral and unreasonable. You guys think you are really smart, but it is very childish reasoning. Check out this essay I did on this very subject:

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=19042384&blogId=479452159

Nev said...

Nice work! I have Dawkin's quote on a T-Shirt, which I've translated so my girlfriend knows what it says. Maybe a native speaker can improve on it. (In Latin America < 1%, according to figures I've seen, class themselves as atheist).

El Dios del Antiguo Testamento es, podría ser dicho, el personaje más desagradable en toda ficción: celoso y orgulloso de ello; un controlador mezquino, injusto, y implacable; un vengativo limpiador étnico sediento de sangre; un matón misógino, homófobo, racista, infanticida, genocida, filicida, pestilente, megalómano, sadomasoquista, y caprichosamente malévolo.

Brucker said...

Why "The God of the Old Testament"? It's the same God through the whole Bible.

Ricardo Tavares Dias said...

What a bunch of ignorant comments.

If any of you wants to know who God is, you'll have to remove prejudice from your minds and get educated enough to read the Word of God as it should be read. Understand the story and the history. Understand the context and the text. You'll have to read the whole Bible and you'll se that both testaments speak of one and only God. A God of Love...and a God of Justice.

geraldo21 said...

Yes, perhaps Ricardo, I agree there is no sense god-bashing until pain is at stake.

Fortunately, however, a lot of people, myself included, have found sufficient meaning in their lives already without this delusion. To my people, there is no sense spending countless months reading a story, and further years studying or preaching it. It is, after all, just that: a story. If a person believes that this book is actually "the word of god from thousands of years ago," then it's quite clear that they have inherent delusional tendencies, and can probably be convinced that climate change is hoax of massive proportions by all of the politicians of the world, too.

Alas, we Atheists have decided to spend the months & years spared from reading this story actually accomplishing something with our time on Earth. Something senseful, something good for Life on Earth. Something real. Not preaching this non-sense, where the only good that comes from it, is that joyful period following the end of the war... the war that religion started in the first place.

The world will be in a natural state of peace only when there is no religion, or no human beings.

kadie said...

Geraldo21, if those of us how studie the Bible are wasting our time then aren't also Atheiste who spend their time telling us that we are wrong and trying to prove so also wasting their time?
War comes form human kind who is not perfect, we are all greed and and can never to prefect. It is true the we use religion to start wars, but that is not the purpose of religion. It is because of our greed that we try to religion to justify war. Really though I don't see myself in a believer of religion but in Christ who came to end religion.

Mary said...

Yes kadie Christ did come to put an end to religion. It's why he was killed. If you truly study Christ teachings, and what he was saying. You would come to know that the true GOD is Spirit, and the Kingdom of Heaven is with in us all.If you take a close look. The GOD of the Old Testament is a whole lot different from the GOD of the New Testament. I think that the teaching of Christ were taken some 300 years after he was killed and made to fit in with the Old Testament teaching to try and bring the followers, and control of the people they were losing back under their thumbs. To me they were losing to much money, from the loss, and control of the people. So out of greed, lust for power, and pettiness they invented a new religion to compliment the old one, and it worked. For a long time it has worked. Until man was able to read the written word for themselves that is.

Gary said...

This is Gary DeVaney of "The God Murders" website. Richard Dawkins has awakened Human awareness to the insane and murderous God of the Bible. I put God on Trial. Thinkers appreciate Bible C&V documentation that proves that Richard Dawkins in 100% on target. If any are truly interested:

www.thegodmurders.com

Thank you so much, Richard!

Regards, Gary DeVaney

pkgs said...

Should I thank who - ''god" --
If these lies were not fed to our ancestors - there would have been no Christianity and the Christians would not have killed Millions and Millions of people in the name of religion and till this day this slaughter is going on.
The stories which are taught to us as facts in the so called Holy books - a kid will laugh at it and he/she can make up better and more believable stories.

The Simple Scientist said...

@lockharts: When you butcher words like "definatly," you lose any and all credibility. Most English-speakers who were not home-schooled spell that word "definitely."

Thank you, Richard Dawkins, for giving the world your books, your knowledge and a path to overcome the ignorance of the past (and the present).

A Disciple of Christ said...

fenm: "You're operating under the assumption that lack of a Church and Christianity would be a bad thing..."


For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness. Psalms 84:10

Paul Arenas said...

You could repent. Moreover, you could ask God for eternal forgiveness through applying the death and resurrection of Jesus to your life of sin within the quietness of your bedroom tonight. As an unrepentant sinner myself, I made this decision around 15 years ago. This is the most important decision that you will ever make. “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
- Romans 10:9-10

Leonardo de la Paor said...

Picture the scene!

Darwin & Dawkins as bacteria on top of a giant lump of Elephant shit debating evolution.

Dawkins says to Darwin, "I believe in the Big Bang"!

"How come"? says Darwin.

"I heard it a few seconds ago & here we are"!

"Elementary, my dear Darwin"!

Leonardo de la Paor said...

Exodus 32:7-10

Is Moses schizophrenic & hearing voices in his head or is God talking to him?

If Moses is schizophrenic then the whole Chosen People & the Promised Land is a Lark in the Park, but if God is talking to him, then God is the FIRST anti-Semitic. He wanted to wipe the Israelites off the face of the earth & start again, but Moses pleaded with God not to & to give them another chance.

Moloch worship (the Golden Calf) offered human victims as sacrifices. The FIRST Jewish Holocaust happened in the Wilderness, right after Passover.Ask your local Jew why the Israelites had to spend 40 years in the Wilderness & he will either LIE or is ignorant of what happened.

See Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 64a to see how to offer human sacrifices & not be guilty!

The Simple Scientist said...

Few things are more ridiculous than trying to prove the truth of ancient scripture by quoting from that very scripture. That's a bit like saying "I'm right because I say I am" or "The Book of Mormon is clearly correct because it says it is correct." Expand your worldviews. Free yourselves.

How could tribes of ancient herdsmen know more about history, cosmology and theology than we could in 2011? The only honest answer is "They couldn't."

hoosierpastor said...

I respectfully disagree with the fundamental assertion of Dawkins and the original post. . . that anger is somehow ignoble or reprehensible in God. Anger is not the opposite of love, indifference is. When I read in the papers not long ago of a man who wrapped his infant son in cellophane and watched him slowly suffocate I became angry, very angry. I wanted something to be done about that kind of evil. I wanted justice. I believe that is the only moral response to that kind of evil. What would you say to a villager in Africa who has just watched his village being burned and his family brutalized. . . that it's immoral for him to become angry??? I submit that our anger at such evil is the natural and appropriate reflection of how God feels about such evil. That is what the anger of God is ultimately about. It is his righteous response to the evil which destroys the goodness, beauty and peace of his creation. Personally I could not believe in a "god" who is not angry about evil.

Leonardo de la Paor said...

Is it fair that 100,000,000 to 300,000,000 sperm are ejaculated by men & only ONE fertilizes the egg?

Some people would have you believe that all the sperm should the egg, even the ones with 2 heads & the ones with no tails.

I think God has people like Richard Dawkins play the "Devils Advocate"! This is a very important role & keeps believers on their toes. Good health to you, Richard & if you have any money left after being screwed by ATHEISTS, you could send us a few bob! Ho, ho, ho.

havocwing said...

The greatest madman to have ever lived.

havocwing said...

The greatest madman to have ever lived.

Leonardo de la Paor said...

"How could tribes of ancient herdsmen know more about history, cosmology and theology than we could in 2011? The only honest answer is "They couldn't."

Its quiet clear that the Hygiene Laws they had in the Wilderness were thousands of years before their time. The medium was religious ritual, the effect was hygiene among a couple million.
Deuteronomy 23:12-14. This one instruction saved them from contacted all kinds of airborne diseases. In parts of the world, even in the 21st century, people don't understand the importance of this instruction.

un servidor said...

The Hebrew word represented by the English word "jealous" is "qannah" which could more accurately be rendered, "possessing sensitive and deep feelings."

I want to testify that as well as I comprehend that I exist, I know that God lives, that He loves His children, and that He does all He does for their eternal welfare. I know this.

"For behold, this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and Eternal life of man."

I invite each of you to seek Him in humility, and I promise "if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul." (Deuteronomy 4:29)

"...weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning." (Psalm 30:5)

larry said...

After further study & reading Spinoza, I now understand the problem in the Old Testament. The priest/scribe Ezra, the Babylonian diaspora Jew, on his return to Jerusalem REWROTE, ADDED TO the Jewish manuscript (s) & left them for the Pharisees to collate & canonize.
They created their god in THEIR image; in the image of a racist, blood thirsty Jew, they created him.

Marcion was right!

The god of the Jews is a MONSTER, who has been used to dupe Christians & Muslims.

jessica said...

Waye, hell's gonna be really crowded. Hey look at the bright side, you all can look at each other at the same time and say: WE WERE WRONG!

A Família Internacional de Embu das Artes said...

Well, Mr. Dawkins & following, after such a description of a God you unfortunately don't know much about, if that's the way He really is, you should be on your knees every day, praying He doesn't exist or making sure you don't offend Him!

Brett Kitt said...

The word "jealous" in the orginal translation, from what I understand, means "passionate". So what is God passionate about? How does passion work in our own human relationships? When is it good and when is it bad? The passion a Mother has for her child is the same passion God has for us. A good mother will try not to spoil her children and only hopes that they won't go out and run in traffic, however.. that's not something she can fully control. She wants real love. She wants a child who freely chooses to love her. She can only hope she has taught them well, and that they trust her teaching. The consequence is there, but it's not because a mother hates or doesn't love her son. It's because when a car hits you, you get hurt. I don't think anyone would deny that. She will still love her son after he gets hit by a car... she will love him if He doesn't... tho she might be more proud and less stresssed. haha. this is the love of our Father God. It's not because we can earn it or deserve it, IT JUST IS! God is LOVE. HE is IT. The understanding of this comes from God, it is a gift. However gifts must be recieved, opened, and accepted. Everything is relative folks. And once God reveals this to you through seeking, everything will start to make a lot more sense. Everything. It takes time though, as any human earthly relationship takes time. God will never let you down though. He will always pull through. I pray that anyone who reads this can understand what I'm saying, and the truth I have found, and the joy of conversation with God, and the relationship. It's amazing.

The Simple Scientist said...

Brett, when you talk about God, do you mean Yahweh? Or Allah? Zeus? Or maybe Hanuman the monkey god? There are so many gods out there to choose from, how do you know which one to worship? Perhaps you mean a passionate Poseidon? You really owe it to yourself to read more than 1 ancient holybook and attend more than 1 kind of religious service. Amen for a passionate Venus, the goddess of love!

beinghuman123 said...

It's funny how religions say that God is loving and forgiving when he is anything but.

I hate how every religion claims to be right and says that the others are wrong. Jesus never intended to start another religion like some people claim. He hated the Pharisees and over turned tables in the temples.

Bill Graham said...

My mother has an illustrated Book of Genesis. I can't even make it through a dozen pages before wishing that the Galactic Child Protective Services would swoop in and take custody of the planet.

Change the scene and the names and is there ANYONE ANYWHERE who could condone such behavior?

And sadly there have been countless millions of souls since forced into all manner of mental/emotional/philosophical gyrations trying to 'spin' such abject horror into something positive or instructive.

Christianity lost me at age 5 with the Noah's Ark story when I didn't see Kangaroos. Reading about this particular version of God's sociopathic behavior isn't likely to win me back from a generally Daoist perspective.

larry said...

Yo to all of true, sincere, seekers of truth!

MISHNAH. HE WHO GIVES OF HIS SEED TO MOLECH INCURS NO PUNISHMENT UNLESS HE DELIVERS IT TO MOLECH AND CAUSES IT TO PASS THROUGH THE FIRE. IF HE GAVE IT TO MOLECH BUT DID NOT CAUSE IT TO PASS THROUGH THE FIRE, OR THE REVERSE, HE INCURS NO PENALTY, UNLESS HE DOES BOTH.

Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 64a
Soncino 1961 Edition, page 437

Following the Mishnah is a discussion among the sages. One of the Talmud Sages, Rabbi Ashi, comments as follows:

GEMARA. R. Ashi propounded: What if one caused his blind or sleeping son to pass through, (3) or if he caused his grandson by his son or daughter to pass through? — One at least of these you may solve. For it has been taught: [Any men … that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall he put to death … And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people;] because he hath given of his seed unto Molech. Why is this stated? — Because it is said, there shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire. From this I know it only of his son or daughter. Whence do I know that it applies to his son's son or daughter's son too? From the verse, [And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man] when he giveth of his seed unto Molech [and kill him not: Then I will … cut him off.]

— Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 64b
Soncino 1961 Edition, page 439

Aaron offered Human Sacrifices to Moloch aka The Golden Calf on Mount Sinai (Exodus 32; Amos 5; Acts 7:42-43) & all through the Jewish Bible you will see that they continued to do it. The Babylonian Talmud teaches them how to do it TODAY!

NOW THAT IS WORRYING.

larry said...

Jesus prayed:

“I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will.”

I DESIRE MERCY, NOT SACRIFICE

Have you never questioned the idea of killing a man to appease God?

Jesus says:

MATTHEW 9

[13] Go and learn what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.

MATTHEW 12

[7] And if you had known what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless.
The prophet says:
Hos.6
[6] For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings. . ..

The above are true witnesses. Now, here are some examples of the many false witnesses:

The likes of Billy Graham and Co state:

In ancient Judaism the shedding of blood was to make atonement for sin. The word "blood" in the Old and the New Testaments symbolized a life that was given. Jesus Christ became the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world for the sins of the world.

Another witness testifies as follows:

By His death on the cross, the Lord Jesus made a perfect atonement for sin, by which the wrath of God against sinners is appeased and a ground furnished upon which God can deal in mercy with sinners. He redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse in our place. He Who Himself was absolutely without sin was made sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

And yet another testifies:

Jesus—We believe that Jesus is the Son of God, was born of a virgin, was wholly God and wholly man, lived a sinless life, died in our place as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind, was buried, arose bodily from the grave, and ascended into Heaven.

Of the many false doctrines of Christendom, none can be more heinous to the Father than this -- that He required His innocent Son, Jesus of Nazareth, to atone for the sins of humans by suffering the horrible death of crucifixion, thus becoming a vicarious, sacrificial atonement. It is heinous because it renders men --

1. Blind to the true message of the Old Testament scriptures,
2. Deaf to the voice of Jesus,
3. Utterly ignorant as to the merciful nature of God and
4. Seals their condemnation who might otherwise have found salvation.

Dan Barker said...

Under "Genocidal," Deuteronomy 13:5 should be Deuteronomy 13:15

Steve Wells said...

Thanks Dan. I've made the correction.

Let me know if you find any more.

Dan Barker said...

Steve,

I can't find your email address. Send me an email to dbarker AT ffrf DOT org

I am working on a new book and crediting the SAB and Drunk With Blood as a resource.

larry said...

DAWKINS IS A HYPOCRITE

GOOGLE:

Richard Dawkins condemns the Myth of the Chosen People & the Promised Land!

---------------------------

That's right - NOTHING!

Dawkins hasn't the BALLS to condemn the Zionist Jews who use these MYTHS to massacre thousands of Arabs in Palestine, BECAUSE he wants to get his BOOKS printed & he knows who controls WORLD publishing! Yep - JEWS!

A proud mana said...

I have had a problem with the Old Testament for some time. God is petty, ugly, vindictive, hateful, bigoted and unjust. My minister says it was reflective of a lawless time. Then why do we still read this junk on Sunday? Then we get to the New Testament and God is a kinder and gentler version of himself or is he? What father sends his son to be killed to rid us of sin? Why couldn't god just forgive? That in my mind would be a loving god, not the one portrayed in the bible. My head cannot wrap itself around the bible. And faith...to be a sheep, stupid, unquestioning with brain that accepts crap and says it is god's own word. Ya right!

The HOME GIRL said...

Hi all! So I realize I am late to the party, but I saw this post and my heart broke.

I think that in the cherry-picking of these verses, it's easy to miss the heart of this God that is none of the characteristics he is accused of being. He LOVES people. He is GOOD, there is no evil in Him whatsoever!

Now, you may say, "He has a funny way of showing it." And I could agree, if I didn't read the contexts of most of these verses, and also know the true character of God, which is in many of the verses not displayed in this post.

613 laws were given by God to His people. A people who had lost sight of God due to many years of slavery and rule by the Egyptians, who didn't honor God...or them. These people, rescued from the clutches of these Egyptians, and who were taken to a place of freedom and abundance, were given these laws to learn how to honor this God who they had lost sight of, but who had not forgotten them, or their cries for help, and who did the impossible to rescue them.

All of the rules that God laid out in detail in the Old Testament were so that His people....who HE created...would have a chance to know Him...to dwell with Him. You have to remember that God is HOLY. He is perfect and there is no evil in Him. NONE. But because of that, evil cannot exist around Him...it gets burned up and destroyed, along with whatever (or whoever) holds it. God made a way to show His people how they could be able to dwell with Him, despite their sin, that would destroy them if they were to try to dwell with Him. When they did sin (which is inevitable, because no one could follow all 613 laws perfectly due to our sin nature - handed down to us by the first humans when they made a choice to listen to the lies of evil rather than trust God), they had to make sacrifices...kill innocent pure lambs for their blood, to atone for the sins they committed..so LOTS of animals were killed. Not because of God, but because of man. Many blame God for this...how dare He allow all these animals to be killed? But, how else would these people atone for their sins? Just say "Sorry"? No, something had to be killed to destroy the sin...it's justice. The sins of the people would be transferred to these pure animals which were destroyed in the place of the person who held the sin. And He forgave them and wiped their sins away so they could dwell with Him. But even then, their hearts had to be truly repentant...because there are verses that say that the sacrifices mean nothing if the heart is not in the right place. But that's why Jesus was referred to as the "Lamb of God"! He was the pure sacrifice for us...He took the punishment for our sins-He was killed so that the guilt wouldn't be on us and that we could dwell with Him, if we believed with our hearts! John 3:16-20

I wish I could write more, but I'm limited in characters..just know God loves you. More than you know. And if you ask Him (not rudely demand, but ask with a heart that truly seeks to know and understand Him), He will show you who He really is! (Jeremiah 29:11-13)

I hope you have a wonderful weekend! =)

Unknown said...

"613 laws were given by God to His people."

A VILE GOD, A VILE BOOK AND A VILE PEOPLE

THE GENOCIDAL GOD OF THE JEWS

"I form the LIGHT, and create DARKNESS. I make PEACE, and create EVIL.
I the LORD do all these things." – Isaiah 45.7.

All cultures have anthropomorphized their gods into humanoid (if sometimes grotesque) form. Were the Jews the exception? Hardly. We know precisely what the Hebrew god looked like. We are, after all, fashioned in his own likeness! "Yahweh", in fact, is an abbreviation of the longer name, "Yahweh Sabaoth." It means, "He who musters armies." Thus Yahweh's name identifies the god primarily as the military leader of the tribe. No wonder the God bequeathed to the world by the Jews turned out to be a monster.

A GOD IN THE IMAGE OF THE JEW

"The Lord is a man of war; Yahweh is his name." – Exodus 15.3.

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.

Without a doubt, the human race has been bludgeoned with books about this one tome, the Jewish Bible. The Jewish Bible is full of violence and ugly stories, with a few "feel-good" platitudes and parables interspersed. It's hardly worth reading. Other than a handful of spiritual gems that can be found in virtually any religion, the Jewish Bible is irrelevant. A person with an innate sense of right and wrong needs none of its teachings, sparse as they are. Reading the Jewish Bible, in fact, can make one highly depraved. Many a serial rapist and killer has also been a Jewish Bible fanatic. They have taken seriously the punishments exacted throughout the Old Testament, such as stoning for "adulterous" women, "the Lord" punishing "his chosen" by making them eat each other, etc., ad nauseam.

In Numbers 31:14-18, Moses becomes enraged that his minions hadn't finished off the people of Midian after the Hebrews had destroyed and pillaged the Midianites' cities and enslaved the survivors. Moses immediately orders his thugs to kill all the male children and married women but to reserve the virgin girls for themselves - to rape, of course.

Hardly something we should be teaching our children. The Jewish Bible is the ultimate controlling device.

NATURAL BORN KILLERS

God tells Abraham to sacrifice Isaac.
(Genesis 22.2)

Boy terrified in ritual abuse in the mountains -Yahweh cult's 'Test of Fear'
"God put Abraham to the test ... Abraham built an altar ... bound Isaac hand & foot ... took the slaughtering knife to kill his son ... But the angel of the Lord began calling ... 'Do not put out your hand against the boy .... for now I know that you fear the Lord ...' (Genesis 22.1,12)

The story of Isaac is NOT a condemnation of child sacrifice. Isaac was spared not because human sacrifice was seen to be wrong but because Isaac was the "child of promise" and needed to survive. The yarn requires the normality of human sacrifice. Abraham was praised for his willingness to appease Yahweh by killing his own son. The sham murder of Isaac (the 'Aquedah') was the prototype for a 'redemptive sacrificial death' subsequently re-worked as the crucified Jesus.

It should be noted that in the biblical text, Isaac (like Jesus) is repeatedly called "the only son" of Abraham (Genesis 22.2., 12., 16.) even though Abraham actually has another, older son, Ishmael.

Moses orders Levite fanatics to murder 3000 golden-calf enthusiasts.
(Exodus 32.27,29)

Tom Vouray said...

@Home Girl:

Please provide biblical references where god says he loves everyone.

The HOME GIRL said...

Hi Tom!

Sure! I would be happy to share some of my favorites. There are SOOO many more than this, but I'm limited on characters. =) These are both from New Testament and Old Testament.

Exodus 34:6 - "The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness." This statement about God is repeated a lot throughout the Bible. Almost like a reminder to many generations who would forget.

Joel 2:13 (MSG)- "Change your life, not just your clothes. Come back to God, your God. And here’s why: God is kind and merciful. He takes a deep breath, puts up with a lot, This most patient God, extravagant in love, always ready to cancel catastrophe." God would send people, His Prophets to speak for Him, when the people didn't want to listen. He would warn them, like a parent warns the children they love. He would also let them know that bad things were coming, but if they would choose to turn to Him, He would "cancel catastrophe"...I love how that is put in the Message version of the Bible.

Zephaniah 3:17 (MSG) - "Your God is present among you, a strong Warrior there to save you.
Happy to have you back, he’ll calm you with his love and delight you with his songs." (This came after a staunch warning to those who turned their hearts against the Lord) Everything He does, He does to try to get those He loves to come back to Him, and when they finally come to their senses, He welcomes them back with open arms! Even though they had hurt Him time and time again. It's amazing!

In the Psalms - David speaks a lot about the Love of God. Even in his most difficult circumstances, He still recognizes that God is full of "lovingkindness".

In the New Testament, we see even more of God's love! Jesus' whole life was love. Everything He did was intentional and full of love for people. Probably the most central verses to the Love of God in Jesus are John 3:16-21. I can't write it all out here, because I'll run out of space, but if you look it up. It is great in all versions, but I really love "The Message" version of this passage!

In the book of Acts, we see how God is reaching out to every nation with the Love and the good news of Jesus. He shows His love and forgiveness by the lives of people who come to Him, from ALL different walks of life. The apostle Paul is a huge example of the lovingkindness and grace of God. His story is amazing in the book of Acts. Chapter 9 is where the change happens, and he becomes one of the most outspoken apostles for Jesus..the one he was so against before!

The letters from the apostles to the churches are also packed with the extravagant love of God and the wonderful gift Jesus gave us by dying for us, and sending the Holy Spirit to dwell in those who love Him. This is the greatest gift ever, and it's available to ANYONE who wants to receive Him! There are letters of teaching, encouraging, even warning not to let evil creep in and try to tear people away from this God who loves them. =)

Ok, I'm out of space again...haha! I could talk on and on about the Love of God. =D The ways He thinks and works is so much higher than the ways I think, but even when I don't understand WHY He does what He does, I do trust that He is working with a MUCH more complete picture than I have. I can do that confidently because I know that I love "The Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness." =D

I would submit to you that every word in the Bible points to the Love of God for people. That may sound absolutely crazy, especially in some parts of what we read that are out of the context of what is happening in the Bible, but I tell you, God is good. There is no evil in Him whatsoever. He can't be cruel, or any of the evil things that He is accused of being. It's not in His nature.

I hope this helps some, Tom. Have a great day! =D

Tom Vouray said...

@ The Home Girl

Thank you for your response. It is obvious that you place high importance in your belief that there is a god that loves you, as well as the rest of the world.

However, you have proven a very important point that believers don't want to admit. I asked you to provide a reference in the bible where god says he loves everyone. And you did not. That is because there is no quote by god that he loves everyone. All of the references you provided are statements by others regarding their opinions about god's love.

I find it very interesting how much believers claim there is a god that loves everyone, but there is no quote in the bible to back this claim up. Kind of like "god's plan" - sounds good until you realize that's not in there either. Just concepts that you were taught, but never bothered to confirm.

And perhaps you have a relationship with a spouse or parent that never says "I love you", but that sort of relationship has no appeal to me. But, hey, if your god never said he loves you, then I assume you could accept that sort of relationship from anyone.


So feel free to continue your belief that there is a god that loves you and everyone, but be sure to be honest (remember the importance of honesty) and admit to yourself and others that you attempt to sway that god did not say he loves everyone in the bible.

You have a great day too!

Tom Vouray said...

@The Home Girl:

Thank you for your response, it was very helpful. It is obvious that you place high importance in your belief that there is a god that loves you, as well as the rest of the world.

However, you have proven a very important point that believers such as yourself don't want to admit. I asked you to provide a reference in the bible where *god* says he loves everyone. And you did not.

That is because there is no quote by god in the bible that he loves everyone. All of the references you provided are statements by others regarding their *opinions* about god's love. I find it very interesting how much believers claim there is a god that loves everyone, but then don’t realize that there is no quote in the bible to back this claim up. Kind of like "god's plan" - sounds good, makes you feel good, until you realize that's not in there either.

If a person (family member, friend, etc.) claimed to love me, but failed to ever express that love to me personally, I would not believe them. Likewise, I try to always to tell my loved ones how much I love them to their face, whenever I can. I guess your god does not feel the need to state his love to anyone (according to the bible).

So feel free to continue your belief that there is a god that loves you and everyone, but please be sure to be honest (remember the importance of honesty) and admit to yourself, and others that you attempt to sway, that your god did not say that he loves everyone in the bible. P. S. – jesus never stated he loved everyone in the bible either.

:(

You have a great, thoughtful, day too!

Eternal Champion said...

So God's not a nice guy by our standards. We should really tell him what's what. That will really put him in his place. Because a guy like this will love our correction.

The HOME GIRL said...

Hey Tom.

Thanks for your reply. I'm so glad you brought this up. I had originally written so much more in that previous reply, but I was limited in characters, so I took quite a chunk out (as you can probably tell, I do love to talk about God and His love! haha!) I think I may have taken the wrong things out...lol

In Exodus 34:6 - That was actually the Lord speaking to Moses, right after Moses asked God to show him His glory. God said He would also tell him who He is...and when He passed by Moses, because to look at the full of God would have destroyed him (again because of the sin of man), He still spoke those words to Moses as He passed by.

Also, please understand that the Prophets in the Bible were God's voice to the people, God would tell them exactly what to say, and they would say it. There was no room for error, because God wanted to make sure His message got to the people properly, so false prophets were put to death...these prophets took what God said very seriously.

If you read John 3:16-21, it says in the Message version (This is Jesus speaking)- "This is how much God loved THE WORLD: (this sounds like "everyone" to me.) He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that NO ONE need be destroyed; by believing in him, ANYONE (also sounds like "everyone") can have a whole and lasting life. God didn’t go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person’s failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him. This is the crisis we’re in: God-light streamed into the world, but men and women everywhere ran for the darkness. They went for the darkness because they were not really interested in pleasing God. Everyone who makes a practice of doing evil, addicted to denial and illusion, hates God-light and won’t come near it, fearing a painful exposure. But anyone working and living in truth and reality welcomes God-light so the work can be seen for the God-work it is.”

And, yes, while the particular phrase "God's Plan" may not be in the Bible, Jeremiah 29:11-13 says this well, that He does in fact have plans for people. Jeremiah is speaking for God in this passage- "I know what I’m doing. I have it all planned out—plans to take care of you, not abandon you, plans to give you the future you hope for. When you call on me, when you come and pray to me, I’ll listen. When you come looking for me, you’ll find me. Yes, when you get serious about finding me and want it more than anything else, I’ll make sure you won’t be disappointed.” God’s Decree.

I know we may differ in opinion on this, Tom, but I just didn't want you to think that God is not a loving God because you didn't see it in the Bible. It's there...spoken by both God the Father and God the Son to His people...and not just once. Spoken over and over again by His followers who experienced His love first-hand. And spoken by people even today, who have been transformed by His love, in ways we never could have imagined! What you choose to do with all of this, is of course, up to you. But I just wanted to put it out there for you.

If I had space, I'd love to tell you an interesting personal story about my own family that would hopefully help you also understand the love of God, and how it can be easy for us to not see it. It has been a sad, but real-world example that I'd love to share if you'd let me.

But, I'm all out of space again...imagine that..haha! Have a great week, Tom! =D

Tom Vouray said...

@ The HOME GIRL:

Thank you for your response. To be clear, your beliefs are your own, and I am not trying to persuade you otherwise. I am glad that your faith in your god has been positive in your family's lives.

Once again, I find it interesting out of 1,200 pages in the KJV of the bible, you only came up with two references that support your god stating that he loves the world. You'd think that for a concept that is so personally important to you that there would be more quotes than that.

In Exodus 34:6, god states that he is "abounding in love and faithfulness", but does not state if this applies to Moses, the Israelites, or everyone in the world. In John 3:16, you do have the phase "loved the world". I will grant you that. and will not argue if jesus was god or vice versa. Still the point remains that, in my opinion, you enthusiasm for the perceived love of god is not backed up by the bible (discounting second hand sources).

"If I had space, I'd love to ..... hopefully help you also understand the love of God, and how it can be easy for us to not see it." Another interesting point. Seems like only believers can "see" god's love, and have to help others "understand". If there were a god who created the universe, then he is a poor communicator that depends upon others to get them to "believe" in him. After all, you did say "it can be easy for us not to see it". Me personally, if I wanted others to know something, I would tell them myself, and make it "easy to see it." I wonder why your god made it easy not to see it?

The HOME GIRL said...

Thanks again for your response, Tom. I so appreciate this respectful discussion with you. I can tell you are a deep thinker and have done some study in this. =)

Do you have kids? I have two. My oldest is our "leader"-he has a strong will, strong opinions and a STRONG aversion to authority. If we ask him to do something, he'll do the exact opposite and then brag about it to us, almost as if to say, "I'm going to do what I want and YOU'RE not gonna stop me!" He says disrespectful and hurtful things to us and others, and acts in ways that has landed him in lots of time-outs, arguments and lost privileges. He prefers to learn his own way (aka, the hard way), and has already had some hard, real-world consequences for his careless words and actions-something very hard for a parent to watch, but he refuses to accept our (or any authority's) instruction & warnings, that would've helped him avoid those hardships.

My youngest is more compliant.. When we ask our youngest to do something, it's done, usually with no arguing or complaining. Our youngest loves to snuggle and gets lots of hugs and kisses-something our oldest pushes away when we try to give. When in trouble, our youngest feels bad and sincerely apologizes, something our oldest does not do. Our youngest hardly hears us raise our voice-something our oldest often hears. Life is a lot easier for our youngest, who realizes the benefits of (mostly) trusting the instruction of parents who love their children and want the best for them.

Do my husband and I love BOTH of our children? WITH ALL OUR HEARTS!!! They are both amazing kids with wonderful, individual gifts! We tell them both how much we love them often, and show them all the time in lots of different ways. But my oldest often rebuffs our expressions of love, and tends to feel unloved as a result. Whereas, my youngest embraces them and finds tremendous joy and security in this love.

Our arms are wide open to BOTH of our children in the hopes that they both will run into them and let us hold them. One has chosen to run into our arms and feels truly loved as a result. The other has chosen NOT to run into our arms and wants to "go it alone." As a result he doesn't feel that same love,but if he'd just turn and run into our arms,he'd also know that love, that's always been there for him.

I say this(I know it's a lot) because all this with our oldest has really shown me the love of God for people in ways I hadn't understood before...love for those that accept and return His love, and for those that curse and reject Him. Love that hung on a cross laying down His life for the very people that beat Him, spat on Him, and nailed Him to a cross!

I believe God is telling us and SHOWING us how much He loves us all the time...you saw yourself that it IS there in the Bible. And it's not just shown in words said in the Bible, but in actions too. I only gave you a handful of verses that talk about the love of God, that's all I had room for, but I could fill up pages and PAGES if I was to share every expression of love that God demonstrated for the world. Things from the Bible, and ways I've seen Him demonstrate it in my life and the lives of countless others from all walks of life!

I would like to hear your thoughts and beliefs about God, if you're willing to share them. You've certainly heard PLENTY from me..haha! Do you believe there is a God at all? Do you believe that there is a god, but that He is different than the God of the Bible? It seems that you don't believe in the God of the Bible, but I don’t want to just assume that, and I was just wondering what you believed, and what brought you to that conclusion. =)

Have a great day, Tom. You too, Steve! Thanks for posting this discussion! =D

Tom Vouray said...

@ The Home Girl/Woman:

Yup I have one child. No, do not believe in (any) god, jesus, etc.

Some more questions for you to ponder:
You said "My oldest is our "leader"-he has a strong will, strong opinions and a STRONG aversion to authority. If we ask him to do something, he'll do the exact opposite and then brag about it to us, almost as if to say, "I'm going to do what I want and YOU'RE not gonna stop me!" He says disrespectful and hurtful things to us and others, and acts in ways that has landed him in lots of time-outs, arguments and lost privileges".

As a believer, should you not follow the requirements of the bible, as provided in Deuteronomy 18:21? After all, this is provided by your bible and your loving god. Or will you defy god's instructions on this matter?

On the other hand, if you feel that the relationship between your god and yourself is much like that of a parent and child, then perhaps you should be more godly with your more defiant child, and should start establishing a place of permanent punishment, akin to hell on earth, if he does not love, respect and follow your ways. After all, this is basically what the bible and your god says people that do not follow or believe in him deserve. Do you think that would be a fair punishment for your child, that you love?

(BTW these are scenarios to make you think about the fundamentals of your religion and bible. I would bet even money that the defiant one grows up to be your best friend and the nice one drives you nuts when they hit 30).

The HOME GIRL said...

Hey Tom!

Thanks for telling me a bit about your beliefs. I was just curious how you believe the earth and all its intricacies were made. In your mind, what happens to people when they die? How did you come to this conclusion? Were you taught this as a child, or did you figure it out as an adult?

I'm sorry, you lost me a little when you mentioned Deuteronomy 18:21 as a reference for discipline. Deuteronomy 18:21 says: "You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?'” Which, in context, God is teaching the Isrealites how to know if someone claiming to be a prophet's message is from the Lord or from sorcery and evil, and He later says if what the prophet said in the name of the Lord comes to pass, then you know it is God. =) I don't know if you might have meant a different scripture.

I think again, you're misunderstanding the heart of God here. God made us for Himself...but He also gave us choice. Just like our kids are our own, but have their own choices. God doesn't "send" people to hell. People CHOOSE hell by not believing in their hearts what God said and who He is....they say they want no part of God or His ways, and God gives them what they request...separation from Him, for eternity....it's not how He wants it, but He doesn't want slaves, (if you've ever been with someone who has made it clear that they are only there with you because they HAVE to be, you'll certainly understand why...) so He lets US pick. He continues to give us chance after chance in this life, but if, at the end of it, if you still decide you want nothing to do with the God of the Bible, You've made your choice, and God will honor it. He doesn't force Himself on people. He loves them. God's not gonna say..."Hey, you said you don't want me, but I'm MAKING you come to heaven with me! You're GONNA spend eternity with Me, whether you want to or not!"

I also recognize that if you don't believe there is a God at all, all this may not matter to you in the least bit, but my prayer is that He shows Himself to you in a way that you can't ignore...in a way that you can't help but respond to Him...not to dry and crusty religion, which is mostly made up of so many man-made rules, so much so that Jesus spent a lot of time rebuking the religious leaders, but to the person and power of God, and His Son and the Holy Spirit. Who only have two rules, out of which everything else naturally flows...Jesus said, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your passion and prayer and intelligence.’ This is the most important, the first on any list. But there is a second to set alongside it: ‘Love others as well as you love yourself.’ These two commands are pegs; everything in God’s Law and the Prophets hangs from them.” (Matthew 22:37-38, MSG) =D

I wouldn't doubt that my oldest, when I am no longer an authority in His life, will treat me differently and I believe our relationship will get better...but I also am fairly certain that it will always be me and my husband who initiate relationship...bribing him to spend time with us with a dinner out, or bringing housewarming gifts, etc to him. I pray that as he matures, and probably after he has kids of his own, that he'll begin to truly recognize all that we did for him, and how much we truly love him...and always have.

I am pretty sure my youngest and I will stay close for life...God willing. =D

Tom Vouray said...

@The Home Girl:

I made a mistake and left out the chapter. The correct reference is Deuteronomy 21:18-21. You can look it up, but basically the recommendation is to stone to death teenagers that do not obey their parents. I was wondering if you feel you should follow the recommendations of the bible in this case, and if not, why not?

Regarding my example of eternal punishment, I am afraid that you have made the same mistake as other believers. You said: "....but have their own choices. God doesn't "send" people to hell." I was not debating the choice of your son's decisions. I am pointing out that I agree that god does not send people to hell, BUT he created hell (in other words, he chose and created the punishment). My question (restated) is: if your son does not follow your instructions and does not love you, why would you not be a more godly parent and put him in a place of permanent punishment? This is a parallel to the basis of your religion - worship god or get permanent punishment. Why would you not chose to do the same to your son?

These examples of punishment not fitting the 'crime' are contrary to your assertion that there is an all-loving god. Interesting things to think about, if you chose to do so.

BTW: not to nag, but you did not answer a previous question: why do you think your god did "not make it easy" (your words) to perceive his love? If I want someone to love me, I try to make it easy, but perhaps your god has other reasons.

Here are some answers/opinions to your questions:
1) The universe is very old (much more than 6,000 years, so the dinosaurs tell me). I don't worry about how it came to existence, and believe that it will be here long after I am gone. A question for you: who created your god?
2) We are born, we die, that's it, no more existence. We like to think that we are superior to other life forms, but that's what happens for all life on earth. Another question for you: if you think you have an immortal soul, please tell me what your soul did before you were born.
3) The question you have not asked yet: Yes brought up in a family of believers. I was lazy and just believed what I was told in church. But you should always note that it is harder to think than believe. I became an atheist again (note that everyone is born an atheist and has to be taught religion) when I started reading the bible, particularly the parts that ministers, priests, etc. never really get around to talking about in their sermons and TV shows. It became evident that what is actually written in the bible is often completely different than what is taught in American Protestant and Catholic churches. That is my favorite way to discuss things on this forum, direct quotes from the bible. Last question: did you form your beliefs by only reading the bible by yourself with no input from others, or were you brought up in a home of believers, attended church regularly, taught in sunday school, etc.? (I am betting on the latter.)

Last but not least you said: "...my prayer is that He shows Himself to you in a way that you can't ignore." Thank you. Here is a very simple criteria for you - pray to jesus that he will appear to me for 30 minutes of conversation, and heal an amputee in my presence. I feel that is not asking too much, and see no reason that he would not grant you this prayer. Let's be fair to jesus and give him 30 days from today to complete these two items. I will let you know if and when I talk with him, and witness the miracle of healing an amputee. And of course, if he does not show up within 30 days, I would be interested in your logic as to why he did not. But before you defend him for not showing up, please read John 14:12-13.

Sorry for all of the questions. I will try to minimize them in future postings. Happy Valentine's Day!

roger perrin said...

@ The HOME GIRL .."please understand that the Prophets in the Bible were God's voice to the people, God would tell them exactly what to say, and they would say it. There was no room for error, because God wanted to make sure His message got to the people properly, so false prophets were put to death"


Interesting - so who determined which were the "false prophets" and which were the 'true' voices in the head?

"No room for error" ? How many stages of translation occurred before the message reached you ?

Tom Vouray said...

@The Home Girl:

You can also add John 14:14 to the reading list. Left that off.

The HOME GIRL said...

Hey Tom and Roger,

I hope you both had a great Valentine's Day and weekend.

Tom, I'd like to answer your questions as best as I can. I am sure there are many people who are much more well versed in scripture than I am, but here goes! =)

~Ok, yes, that new reference definitely makes more sense...haha! So, remember, in Deuteronomy, God is giving instructions through Moses to His people who have come from generations of tyranny, by a pagan country serving many gods. God is calling His people, who are coming into a new land that He has promised them, to become a holy people who can dwell with Him, so the "rules" seem harsh, but before Christ, this was the standard to be able to dwell with God....the perfect and Holy God who can not dwell around evil. So, if I was living in the days of Deuteronomy and I was an Isrealite mother, who wanted to dwell with this God I was learning about, and whose son was rebellious continuously with no regard for his parents' discipline, a glutton and a drunkard (which, my oldest is neither at this point) I would probably do as the law said, or pay with an animal sacrifice to atone for it. But since Jesus came, we don't live under the old law, which, if you need more explanation on that, I'd be happy to give, but I'm gonna run out of space here. Now, I simply pray for my oldest-a LOT! He's not too far gone...Nobody is, as long as they are alive!

~Ok, about hell-the Bible says that hell was created not for people, but for the devil and his angels. Eternal separation from God. I believe that's in the Gospel of Matthew. Not what God wants for people, but many people choose it, and sadly choose to join the devil in eternal separation from God. God granting them their request is hardly punishing them, don't you think? It's what they asked for. Does that make sense?

~The BTW Question-just to clarify, I didn't say GOD doesn't make it easy for us to perceive His love. I said that many may FEEL that way, then I explained that it's because perhaps they are like my oldest son, and decide to reject and disregard the offers of love from Jesus, to do life on their own terms. I'm sorry if that story didn't convey that well enough-sometimes I write too much, and I'm sure the "punchline" gets lost in all the words. =)

~So, I'm afraid I can't make a "demand" of God like that. 30 minute conversation-that's one that you'll have to do on your own. lol He's there in the room with you, even now, Tom. You can talk to Him and ask Him to show you that He's real. Ask Him for "eyes to see and ears to hear". If you mean it from your heart, He'll do it, in a way and at a time that you will KNOW it's Him, and in a way that's perfect for YOU...even more than you could ask for yourself!

And, healing an amputee in front of you-would you really believe if you saw it, or would you say it was fake, or make up an excuse? The Bible talks of many who saw out and out miracles and still didn't believe, even though they saw it with their own eyes. If you have the time/interest, look up "Todd White Testimony" on Youtube. His "testimony" (story of how he came to know Jesus) and what God is doing in and through this man is AMAZING! Miracles are happening, even today! =)

I know this all may sound absurd to you right now anyway, but nevertheless, I'm still prayin' it! Please know that I'm doing that because I care about you.

Thanks so much for answering my questions about your faith. I'm going to have to go to part 2 for my story of how I became a follower of Jesus. It's a long one, and I'm afraid I'm out of room, yet again! Big surprise, eh? haha!

Have a wonderful week, Tom! Part 2 coming soon! And Roger, I'll be happy to answer your question in the next post too. Hope you have a great week as well! =D

Tom Vouray said...

@The Home Girl:

And here we go…………………
You said: “But since Jesus came, we don't live under the old law.” Interesting. Can you point me to the sections of the bible that clearly list what parts of the old testament no longer apply? Otherwise, it would appear that you are simply rejecting the parts of the bible that do not fit in your views of an all-loving god.

You said: “…..Eternal separation from God. I believe that's in the Gospel of Matthew. Not what God wants for people, but many people choose it, and sadly choose to join the devil in eternal separation from God. God granting them their request is hardly punishing them.”
I am not sure what version of the bible you have, but in my KJV the last chapter is Revelation, with this:
“Revelation 20:13-15 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
So much for simple separation! Interesting. Not to hurt your feelings, but I perceive that you are deflecting here. Once (three actually) again you have not answered my question about if it would be fair to perpetually punish someone you love. A simple yes or no will suffice.

You said: “I didn't say GOD doesn't make it easy for us to perceive His love. I said that many may FEEL that way.” Actually, you didn’t. Here is your statement, cut and pasted from the original post: “If I had space, I'd love to tell you an interesting personal story about my own family that would hopefully help you also understand the love of God, and how it can be easy for us to not see it.” But I will let you slide on this one.

You said: “So, I'm afraid I can't make a "demand" of God like that.” Interesting. I did not ‘demand’ anything, and neither should you. I simply asked you to pray for something, that if answered, would result in another believer and a healed amputee, a win-win situation! I do not understand your hesitation. It would appear that you do not want to be held accountable for the results of your prayers. Once again, quoting from the bible: “And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.” This is not taken out of context, nor are there any limits; jesus did not say “You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it, unless you are demanding, or put a time limit on it…..”

You said: “….the perfect and Holy God”. Do you believe that your god is perfect and has not made any mistakes?

I will wait for your next post to answer my other questions regarding who created your god, what your soul did before you were born, and how you became a believer. You have a great week too!